Category: Uncategorized

To listen to the podcast visit https://www.thecinephiliaclounge.com/podcast/ep-4-thelma-and-louise/

Pat:

Welcome to The Cinephiliac Lounge. I’m Pat O’Connell

Scott:

and I’m Scott Kilroy.

Pat:

And we’re two guys who like to talk about movies over a couple of drinks today. We’re talking about Thelma and Louise Scott. Could you give us a brief breakdown of the film?

Scott:

Sure.  Warning spoilers ahead. Directed by Ridley Scott and written by Callie Khouri.  Thelma and Louise tells the story of two women who tried to go on a fishing trip only to be forced to be on the run from the law. When Thelma is almost raped and Louise shoots and kills the wood be rapist, the two have various misadventures while attempting to avoid the police with the goal of sneaking into Mexico. Eventually the two find themselves being chased by the local police, as well as the FBI, rather than surrender the two decide to drive off a cliff to their deaths. 

Before we get into the movie, pat, what are you drinking tonight?

Pat:

I am drinking something I was unaware of. It was a recent gift from my friend Blake. It is Michter’s small batch, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey.

Scott:

Oh, I’ve had that. That’s good.

Pat:

Yeah. It’s distilled in small batches, according to the Midwest pre-revolutionary war quality standard dating back to 1753.  91.4 proof. I’m going to try this baby for the first time. Let’s see the nose.  Well, I guess it’s kind of like a Amber color, like most bourbons, the nose kind of light the smell smells like corn subtle.  I’m going to take a nice little swell here. Kind of like a honey and vanilla. And I guess it’s got to get it subtle, but it’s got a little heat and spice at the end. Like a little peppery. 

Scott:

Nice.

Pat:

Yeah, definitely liking it. What do you, uh, what are you drinking today?

Scott:

I’m drinking something new today as well. I’m drinking 1792, small batch bourbon. It’s produced by the Sazerac company for the Barton distillery. It comes in a bottle that looks like it should hold perfume. And it’s at 93.7 proof and its tagline is, goes well with ambition. So let’s see if that’s the case, the color it’s got a kind of straw golden caramel color. Nose,  I’m getting a lot of vanilla and a bit of Carmel taste. Wow. There’s a lot of rye spiciness in this and I’m also getting some caramel and the finish is vanilla and a lot of rye.  It kind of reminds me of Buffalo trace, but it’s a little more subdued overall. Not, not bad, but nothing really stands out. There’s also a 12 year expression and a single barrel expression that I was unable to find, but I’ve heard those are a little better. I also find it funny that I’m not a big fan of rye, but he gives me a high rye content bourbon, and I really ended up liking it.

Pat:

I, uh, I, I’m very deficient on anything rye.   I think that’s the next thing I got to try it. I got to try some kind of rye bourbon.

Scott:

Yeah. It’s not bad. I just ended up going back to bourbon is what I find. So what were you drinking during the movie?

Pat:

Okay. So the movie, I was a little bit all over the place. I was just drinking coors, when I was drinking because I watched it. I watched the film a couple of times and I watched the film with have the DVD. So I watched a couple of times with commentary that one with the stars Susan Sarandon ran and Geena Davis and the screenwriter Callie Khouri.  And then I had one withRidley Scott. So I had sat down with this movie a couple of times and so had my typical just go to Coors or whatever beer drinking. Then one night I was like, oh, you know, I want something nice. And I, for whatever reason, not that it goes with the film at all. I made a vodka martini with olives. And then at some point I was like, you know, this movie, what I should have been drinking was either some sort of tequila, everybody drinks, Miller.  Well, most of the bad men drink Miller.  Miller is a big part of this movie. So Miller or  tequila. But the thing that surprises me and I’d forgotten, cause it seems to me many times before was Jean Gina Davis. She’s obsessed. She gets obsessed and just starts drinking wild Turkey throughout the film. So at some point when I was watching it, I, I, I had to, I went and dug up what I had left of the, uh, wild Turkey 101. So I was drinking that with the movie.  What about you?

Scott:

I was drinking something new for me as well as the small batch bourbon I’m trying now I tried something called green spot. I don’t know anything about Irish whiskey. I’ve only had Jamison’s, but this is a new Irish whiskey that just came out and it got a lot of really good reviews. I saw it in the store. I was like, I’m going to give it a try. And I have to say, it’s pretty good, very different than bourbon. It’s really smooth has some really nice flavors, but they aren’t in your face. I definitely want to review it like for real in a in a future podcast.

Pat:

Sounds good. I only had Jamison myself. So yeah, that sounds pretty awesome. We should definitely, definitely do it for a future episode.

Scott:

Yeah. And Jameson’s not bad. It’s just, it’s kind of run of the mill. I don’t, I don’t think there’s a lot of flavor in there. So I just always had this impression of Irish whiskeys as being kind of boring but that’s not the case apparently.

Pat:

Okay. Well, I’m going to take another swell of a Michter’s, small batch pre-revolutionary war recipe, and then let’s, um, let’s dive in.

Scott:

So do you remember where you saw this first?

Pat:

I looked through my archives. You know, we had a conversation earlier about how I have a lot of stuff. I have a lot of stuff. Just ask my wife who often gets annoyed with just how much space I take of this apartment with my junk. And I could’ve sworn, I had a newspaper ad to try and look to, to remind myself of the actual theaters that I saw as it cannot. But I definitely saw some at the movie theater. I saw it many times. I think I saw it four times. I saw this, I think as many times as a tombstone, which was about four times, I think most of them were all in Brooklyn. Don’t know. But I do know for certain, I mean, I might’ve saw it at the Marlboro theater, which no longer exists, which was on Bay Parkway. I saw almost all eighties films there because I lived at the time four blocks away from it.  So I was happy as a pig and that I would only be four blocks away from the theater. I lived at that theater, but as I there, or there’s another theater on 86th street, which was also gone, which was called the Oriental. But I definitely know the last time I saw this film on the big screen was it was at Sheepshead bay at the UAE theater there. And this is definitely a film that needs to be seen on the big screen because the landscaping, the landscape and the scope of the film, it really adds to the majestic quality, especially by the end of the film. If you see it on the big screen, when did you see it? Did you get to see it on the big screen?

Scott:

I’m really embarrassed to admit this. I haven’t seen it until two weeks ago. I totally missed this. When it came out, I don’t know why I wanted to see it. I remembered making plans to seeing it and they fell through. And the next thing I knew it was out of the theaters and I, I had not ever seen it until you recommended it to me.

Pat:

Oh, well, that certainly happens. No one could get to it all. Now there’s plenty of films. Same as for, for me. I thought, you know what a Ridley Scott fan, what a mark I am for him. So I had to see this on the big screen.

Scott:

No, I understand. I wish I had seen it on the big screen. It looks great. And it’s, it’s kind of a departure for him. I don’t think I can think of any other movie he’s done that looks like this.

Pat:

Yeah. The cinematography did this. Adrian Biddle was the cinematographer. Very good. And again, it, it really, it, you really can see it when it, when it’s on the big screen, I watch it on DVD. I’m like, oh, I need, I need a 4k restoration or a 4k on this movie because you know, the watch on DVD. And I’m like, ugh, like watching on Laserdisc, which I own this movie on laserdisc. Of course. Yeah. The cinematography on this film is fantastic. It, everything.  All Ridley Scott  and Tony’s Scott films, whether they’re good or bad, they always look polished and great. They always have great cinematographers. And yeah, this film is really beautiful. It’s done so well, the stuff that they had to do to light certain sequences, they had shots of them. There’s a lot of night shots in this film where you’re there, they’re driving and you see it’s all the trucks and highway. They had to have cars with lights on the cars to follow the cars so that the cars could be lit as well as they are.

Scott:

Oh Wow. That’s interesting. Yeah. The towards, I don’t want to jump around too much, but towards the end, there’s all those scenes where they’re in the, they’re in the canyons that are just lit beautifully. I mean, it just, I just imagine as the cinematographer, it must’ve been an equal part hell, but like fascinating and like really fun to like those scenes. 

Pat:

No, absolutely. 

Scott:

So one of the things I wanted to mention, I was looking into the, kind of the notes about the making of this movie. Ridley Scott didn’t want to direct it at first.

Pat:

Callie Khouri, this is her first scriipt and she had a friend. I think she had a friend, someone brought it to scot-free productions and he initially they brought it to them. Her friend got it too to scot-free to see if they could find someone that might be interested for foreign backing financial backing.  And then they read the script and like, this is actually kind of good and then really read it. And he was like, this is really good. And he decided he wanted to produce it. And he was looking for directors and stuff like that. And in the there’s a making of, on the DVD. And he explains that he spoke to a lot of different people. Some of them, some directors, he just felt did not get the material. There were some people that he seriously considered. I know that Richard Donner was kind of in lead wouldn’t, you know, Richard Donner would have done a fantastic job as well. Cause he’s done plenty of fantastic movies.

Scott:

Yeah, That would have been really interesting. Am I in my notes, that was the that’s underlined Richard Donner.

Pat:

Richard Donner can do the man can do action. Uh, you know, the guy did lethal weapon, doing Thelma and Louise, the film would have been, would have been good. It would have been funny. It would have been action packed. We certainly do a great, great job know guy did Superman. He did countless movies. I think, I think what you said before that Ridley at some point said in the documentary that people kept asking him or people were leery, I thought was funny. People really were like, this is so great. Why don’t you want to direct it yourself?  xAnd so at some 0.1 of the actresses that he was talking to said the same thing, and he just kind of said, okay, you know what, maybe I should, maybe I should do this. And Ridley Scott proved with alien and blade runner and legend. He does a man who could he create a world, a foreign world, a future world, an alien world. He can do that. This film showed that he could make the American landscape seem at once entirely familiar because they filmed parts of this. They filmed, they didn’t actually make the journey that the characters do in the film. They shot a lot of it in like Bakersfield, California, and near LA. They did shoot in Utah. They shot in Moab desert, which is close to monument valley. So a lot of the stuff at the very end of the film feels, feels familiar because it is, we’ve seen those locations and countless other films, especially westerns.  And that lends something to the film itself, using those locations in Utah. But the fact that he was an Englishman who did this American road picture, his perspective was a little bit different. And he, he really focused and was inspired by things that an American and American director might not think twice about like telephone poles. He went on to say that, you know, he was fascinated by these long stretches of telephone poles, but even by 91, so much of them had been gone and he found this one strip that is a shot in the film where it’s kind of like kind of hazy, but you see, you know, this stretch of telephone poles on either side for, as far as the eye can see, he worked really hard to find that location to get that shot.

Scott:

Oh, interesting. Okay. Very cool. Yeah, it definitely has, has a Western feel to it by the way I was looking at who they were, some of the original cast that were considered really weird. I don’t know if you looked at that.

Pat:

I did the, you want to bring up some of the names cause I saw we have some notes that we talked about. You had some names, but I had another set of names that you might not know about. So you go first.

Scott:

Okay. So the ones that I found out about were Michelle Pfeiffer and Jodie Foster, which should, that’s like the most realistic of them that I found. I found another another, uh, they were considering Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn, which I honestly can’t envision that at all.

Pat:

Yeah. Both of those would have been very different films. And it’s interesting that Michelle Pfeiffer and Jodie Foster is a weird mix. It could’ve worked. What’s especially interesting about that is that fell through, right?

Scott:

There were scheduling conflicts or something. Yeah.

Pat:

But Jodie Foster then went on to do silence of the lambs instead, which came out the same year as Thelma and Louise and all three Jodie Foster and Gina Davis and Susan Sarandon. And we’re all up for best actress awards at the Oscars. And she wound up winning for Silence of the Lambs. So it’s very, very interesting that it fell through for, and yet wound up the way that it did sounds a lamps, phenomenal movie as well. So yeah, I think, I think it worked out the best it could for film.

Scott:

Yeah. I think you’re right. So who were some of the people you heard about?

Pat:

The interesting thing that I came across was Callie Khouri, uh, the audio commentary and in the making of, she talks about how she, initially you have to give it to her. This was her first screenplay. So talk about hitting that out of the park first time at bat because the script is, is great. She, but when she brought it to, when they brought it to Scott free, the whole idea was that she was looking to get some backing because she wanted to direct herself and in the commentaries and making of, you could see that it kind of still eats at her a little bit because she brings up, oh, you know, I wouldn’t do it. If I would’ve done it, would’ve been very different though. I would never have had that money. Like in the auto commentary, every time something comes up, just like you see, you see how many, like jet helicopters and that jet, if I had done it,  that wouldn’t be, I wouldn’t be able to do that same. Cause I wouldn’t have that money. I wouldn’t have that money. But the thing that she brought up is she was thinking Holly Hunter and Francis McDormand. 

Scott:

Huh. 

Pat:

Which that would’ve worked, that

Scott:

Would have worked. Yeah. I’ll give it to you that that definitely would have worked

Pat:

The film as it stands, I think works beautifully with the two actresses that got the parts. Both of them, both of them are, are great in the film. They’re fun. They’re smart. They’re on point everything. It’s so moving, it’s bizarre in the sense that it is, this, it is a very, it is a very, it is on the one hand, a very mainstream film. Right. Right. But on the other hand, it’s not in the stuff that attends, you know, one of the things, one of the things that I liked about the film and was this movie at its heart, this is a seventies movie and I love seventies movies. I, this is a seventies film that’s wrapped in a glitzy nineties mainstream package. It does not a Hollywood ending for that night for that time period. 

Scott:

Not at all. 

Pat:

It was a seventies film ending.  And I, I adore seventies films because of how gritty, fun and fucked up and depressing many of the films of the seventies are. But I, I re I really respond to that. And it’s funny when I told, I told some people that we were doing or had conversations about doing this film for the podcast. And I brought it up to a friend of mine, George, and also Gina. They were, they were a little shocked or taken aback that when I said that I, that I love this movie. I don’t know why it was like, really like, kind of like confused, like really that movie. I’m like, no, it’s great. Yeah. I mean, it looks phenomenal. It’s like, why wouldn’t you understand that? I mean, I’m a Ridley Scott Guy, uh, and this is Ridley Scott. And, uh, going back to what we were saying, this is Ridley Scott , visually being the visual stylist that he always in, his always is in his films. And that helps to elevate the material to a certain state. If it had been done as a smaller film, like Callie Khouri had envisioned the issues of the sociological issues, the feminist issues or concerns that the film has problems and issues that they’re addressing, they would all still be there, but it would feel very different.

Scott:

Yeah. Yeah. I have trouble imagining how would, you know what she was, she imagined the movie would, it was going to be because it just works so well is what it is. And it’s really funny. It’s one of those movies when I was writing the synopsis for it, the plot for this is actually kind of Elegant. Like it’s simple, but like in an elegant way, you know what I mean? Like it, it’s not convoluted at all. It’s, it’s, it’s very much like in the, in the vein of a typical buddy road movie,

Pat:

Absolutely. It is a buddy road film. It is a outlaw film just happens to have two women in leads. Instead of the typical two men. As I said before, it feels like a seventies film. The premise, the plot that you have a Thelma is this childish, innocent, naive housewife whose husband Daryl is a philandering asshole to her. And Louise has her like waitress best buddy. And they go to the Hills, have eyes. They go, they, they, it, not exactly horror, but they, they go to, to have a weekend getaway. And it turns into this whole other thing. And the mood, the mood does shift in the film. Like once they, once they go get a drink and they wind up at the silver bullet restaurant and the scene where the guy Harlan has gotten she’s drunk and dancing and kind of flirting or whatever. And then he brings her out and then he starts to try and like kiss her and make something happen.  It gets fucked up and scary. There is a moment where he’s hitting and you’re like this, it gets, it gets a little hard to watch.  And it’s amazing that they could do that. And then Louise stops them because Thelma has taken Daryl’s gun because she’s taken everything. But the kitchen sink with them, they need that for the story obviously. But the fact that it gets very dark because she stops him, you think that’s it. And he just has to push it and say like, she tells him in the future when a woman’s crying like that she’s not having any fun and he can’t help, but be an asshole. I was like, oh, I should have gone ahead and fucked her. And she just loses her mind is what you say and shoot him the fact that they are able to turn it and then you’re able to have comedy 10 minutes later is, and for it to feel organic is pretty amazing.

Scott:

Yeah, absolutely. And that it does turn, I, I did, like I knew about the movie, so I knew certain things were going to happen, but I was not prepared for her to shoot him at that point. I don’t know what I thought was going to happen, but I was very surprised when she, when she shot him, I was like, holy shit.

Pat:

Gina. I think Gina Davis describes in the, one of the making of our watch. She said that she, she would sneak into theaters in the back of, they just cause she, she was really, she was really psyched about this movie. She’s just like really loved this movie. She loved shooting it. She loved being part of it. She loved watching audiences react to it. And she said, she went to cannes with Ridley Scott and they’re showing the film and it’s just, it was quiet. And they started to get nervous. You know, maybe it is so quiet. We’re bombing here. It got to that scene. And when, when Louise shoots Harlan in the chest, the theater erupted at cannes, like they just lost their mind. So it, it certainly taps into a primal feeling for, for, for women and for men, if their heads are screwed on straight.

Scott:

Yeah. It’s really funny because looking at this and then looking at birds of prey, we’re like, we picked two movies where like there, well, this movie does have one good male character in it, which I’ll come to in a minute, but we pick movies where there’s really nobody. Um, and, and, and Thelma and Louise, of course, Hall Slocum played by Harvey Keitel is the only man in the movie that has any sympathy towards these women. Like her, any understanding of what they might’ve gone through.

Pat:

I disagree. You’re forgetting about Michael Madsen. Jimmy. Jimmy is the coolest ass cat.

Scott:

But yes, Jimmy is a cool ass cat, but he does not follow directions. He was told to leave the money. And this is something I didn’t catch this on the first, first watching, I caught this later, it’s not really spelled out, but he gives them up. They know that he brought them, he brought the women $6,000 because at one point Harvey Keitel’s character says when they catch JD and he’s got the $6,000 on him, he says, oh yes. Which Jimmy had told us he had brought the women so they could just skip to Mexico. So he’s not, he’s not as good of a guy as he is. You would think.

Pat:

Okay, point takent, I think I would have to rewatch it. I read, I watched deleted scenes and outtakes as well. And I, and they do have a scene of them interrogating Jimmy. And I think that they arrive at, I don’t want to go on record for the record. Anyone who’s a thumb Louise expert, please. Excuse me, if I’m incorrect. But I think in the, uh, one of the outtakes or the deleted scenes, they, the cops arrive at the they’ve figured out the amount of money that he’s found with corresponds to the amount of money taken out or something. Yeah. So I get what you’re saying.

Pat:

Yeah. The film, as it stands, you, you would have to think, well, yeah. You know, Jimmy, Jimmy is picked up by the cops and J D Brad Pitt’s character, J D is picked up by the cops. So they figured it out from the two of them. Yeah. But, but for the most part, he’s, he’s, he’s not a perfect character. He’s a flawed man, but he’s at, at his, it’s not like, 

Scott:

I know you’re saying 

Pat:

he’s, he’s not like a birds of prey where there’s no one there. I mean, there is not one man in birds of prey that it’s worth a fucking damn.

Scott:

No, no, I, I hear you. It’s he’s not that bad. It’s just, I dunno. I always any, any movie where there’s the law involved, I kind of slip into this like mode of, um, like I’m a character from Goodfellas or something like you don’t talk to the cops.

Pat:

Don’t fucking  rat you don’t rat snitches get stitches. Yeah,

Scott:

Exactly. So I saw, I saw Jimmy’s betrayal is I saw it as a betrayal, probably more than the normal person watching this movie would

Pat:

No, I hear ya. I hear ya. It’s a valid point. It’s a valid point. But he, he, he does go out. He does. He does. He tries to do the right thing. 

Scott: 

Fair enough. Yeah, he does. 

Pat:

He tries to do the right thing.

Scott:

 By the way, I got to mention one side note, as you know, I know the listeners probably don’t know, but as you know, I’m a huge Harvey Keitel fan love him and everything, but God he’s trying that accent out. It was killer. I don’t know where the hell he was supposed to be from, but he was, it was like Brooklyn, by the way of the deep south.

Pat:

No, it’s just like when he did a last temptation of Christ where everybody was just like, yeah, yeah. It’s 2000 years ago. But we talked like this. That’s how we talked to 2000 years ago in  Jerusalem. It’s the thing I get what you’re saying.

Scott:

But he was great. I mean, I love Harvey Keitel he’s, you know,

Pat:

There’s a sequence in there which cracks me up that is completely hidden. Well, two things in the scenes where he’s laughing at Chris MacDonald being Daryl that’s really just him laughing like yeah. Chris MacDonald was apparently cracking Harvey Keitel, the fuck up  in this movie and Gina Davis, it seems like everybody loved everybody. Loved Chris MacDonald. And this movie Yeah. Gina Davis points out. I came across Gina Davis in the commentary. It talks about how, how good he is as Daryl and have fun or whatever. I think that they used to date, like they were like ex-girlfriend and boyfriend and wound up in this movie,

Scott:

But weird. Huh? Yeah. Cause said he’s a bastard in the movie. He plays a bastard in the movie. 

Pat:

It is interesting that Darrell is such a douche bag in the film. But the, as you said, the actor, everyone seemed to love. In fact, Ridley apparently loved to use accidents and privatization and really, really encourage a free, willing freewheeling air in the, with the actors. But apparently that scene where he comes out of the house to get into his car when he leaves Thelma in the morning, and then he kind of slips on the wood and he’s like, God damn it. I don’t need to in the morning. It’s like you get out of here by two, like three, not by two. That was the first take. He actually fell and like bumped his head pretty good. And everything that he said in that particular scene was completely ad-libbed. 

Scott:

Oh, that’s funny. 

Pat:

It seems completely like organic and was written or, or plant, but it absolutely was not. Oh, that’s

Scott:

Really funny. Yeah. Yeah. Hats off to him. I mean, he, he played a complete jackass, like you ha there’s no sympathy for that character at all. He’s like a jackass from the second he comes on the screen to the last thing he said,

Pat:

He almost redeemed. He almost seems like he gets it in that last shot towards the end of the film where they kind of Dolly into him, like about to cry in his living room next to that. Did you notice the set design? His movie is fascinating and amazing. He was about to say what he’s about to cry. He’s next to that. They have a lamp that have goldfish in it. Did you catch that?

Scott:

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Pat:

And like, uh, in a seventies pinball machine, because like I said, this movie at its heart really is a seventies film. Yeah. Christopher McDonald, Christopher McDonald. I mean, everybody was, was great. I agree with you on Harvey Keitel kind of is a little bit of a stretch for him to be from Arkansas. Yeah.

Scott:

Just a little, but he, you know, that’s fine. I, I could accept it, you know? Sure.

Pat:

He, he does something, oh, there’s a couple of things. Uh, and I always do this where we talked for a little bit and then I re remind I’m reminded of something I want to go back to. There’s a sequence that he, speaking of happy accidents or improvisation, there was always, when he goes to, when Hal Slocum Havey Kietle’s  tells character breaks into Louise’s apartment, he checks there’s this whole thing about, have you seen the movie how fastidious Louise is and how everything has to be perfect and clean. And he like checks to see her table is like, you know, spotless and clean. And he looked and he picks up a photo and he said, and they’d always cracked me up. And apparently he totally ad-libbed it where he picked up a photo, which is really a photo of Susan Sarandon at that age, he says, happy birthday lady.

Yeah. And going, by the way, he reminded me of how obsessed I am with blade runner apparently, really is also because there’s a good portion of the commentary for Thelma and Louise where Ridley is talking about blade runner. Fascinating. Really? Okay. I’ll have to pick this up. Yeah. You have to listen to it’s great. But he talks about, because he talks about how much fun he had on this shoot. Like he’s like he really had a great time shooting this film. Like he, he, he, he was paranoid at how well it was going and how everyone was enjoying themselves. And he says like, it’s the complete antithesis of the set for blade runner. And the only reason why I’m bringing this up, because, you know, one I’m obsessed with blade runner, but two that sequence, when he picks up the photograph of Gina Davis and he was happy birthday lady, they do this audio thing of children laughing. So they kind of make you think, or you kind of hear, or there’s this weird, subtle thing of somehow hearing her as a child. And it something that he does in blade runner when Rick Dechert looks at Rachel’s photograph and for a split second, the photograph, the light moves like it comes to life and you hear sound the subliminal sound of what the experience was or what was going on at the moment when the photo was taken. And that’s also in Thelma, but he doesn’t touch upon that, which I also found fascinating.

Scott:

Oh, that’s a cool, that’s a cool effect too. Wow. Huh? Yeah. Oh, so one thing I did want to bring up JD Brad Pitt. Yeah. That was his first acting major role. As far as I know, I know he was in 21 jump street in the background, but I don’t think it was in any movies until this point.

Pat:

If memory serves correct. At one point they wanted, I think they wanted Michael Madsen to play the initially one of Michael Madsen to be Harlan and he was “I don’t want to play that guy”. And he got to play Jimmy and I may be messing this up. They had someone else in mind to be JD. I think I, I think George Clooney tried out for thar role.

Scott:

Okay. I had the notes I found was that it was originally going to be played by Billy Baldwin, which I guess, I don’t know, not a big Billy Baldwin fan.

Pat:

No. That my bread is buttered on that side or anything. But if you, if you’re going to talk about who’s man, prettier, Brad Pitt from then it’s gonna win. Okay. Yeah. And that sexy he gets with Thelma like Jesus and that six pack is ridiculous. By the way. I think Gina Davis, I think was abs was smitten with Brad Pitt. I don’t blame her. Yeah, sure. Why not? And there’s a, there’s a, in the making of, like Ridley Scott was like, oh, at some point he’s he’s like, oh, we gotta do this sexy love scene. And so he started interviewing body doubles and Gina Davis was like, what, why are these people like coming to your trailer or whatever. And Ridley Scott like describes as like, it was a very bizarre thing to cast it because it’s like, okay, well I was cast the body, but double it, it seemed like it was like weird.  It was like, oh yes. Um, would you mind taking off your shirts? And we see how you look naked. Right. Hollywood, baby Hollywood. But Gina Davis apparently was got hip to this. And she’s like, what are you doing? And he’s like, oh, I’m casting body double. And she’s like, you don’t need to do that. Well, hell no, I’ll do it myself. Probably because she thought that Brad Pitt was pretty attractive, you know? Yeah. Why the hell? Not when I saw the outtakes of stuff that they didn’t use crazy. I’d read something. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I read something really quickly. I think it was today. I came across that the outtakes of the sex scene, apparently once some sort of soft porn prize, I don’t know if that or not. Alright, we’ll have to look into that. Well, it must be explored.

Scott:

Yeah. We, we need to know the truth behind that.

Pat:

but I thought he was very good. He was perfect for the role. If you’re going to have, if you’re going to have the lone drifter guy that Thelma is going to be into it, he would have to be attractive. And you have to, it’s amazing in this film is it’s 1991. And at the end of the film, I wrote that down somewhere. But when the cops are chasing her, the FBI, you hear their date of birth. And even though the Louise very much seems much older and very much at the outset of the film, it’s very much a mother daughter relationship, even though they’re best friends with Louise and Thelma the only like a year apart. So there was a scene and watch it. And it seemed smooth many times, like I said, four times, at least in theater owned them. laserdisc own it on DVD.  I’ve seen this movie many times, but caught this time that it, or at sank in when JD asks or in the car, you know, he bought, at some point, he’s asking her, how come you, you know, you’re married, why don’t you have kids? She, she mentioned that she, she got married at 18 and she had been dating Daryl for four years. Right. So it’s like a seventies film. It’s like, oh yeah, I met him when I was a 14. And then we got married. So not really an emotionally or that makes that you could see that why she’s not as developed in her personality as maybe Louise is, if she’s been with Darryl since she was 14.

Scott:

Yeah. I, I got to tell you, there were points in the movie where I would get genuinely mad at her because she would just do something really dumb. And then I would have to kind of remind myself, wait, she’s really sheltered.

Pat:

She’s really sheltered. She’s really naive. I mean, I, I agree with you, uh, everything transpires in his film because,

Scott:

Because she does stupid,

Pat:

She, she continually does stupid things or stupid, naive make stupid and naive mistakes, which propels the, the, you know, the plot and the story forward. But if she had, if she had not done, if she had did one less mistake  movie, the, the end result could have been different.

Scott:

Yeah. Yeah. It was funny. Cause I, I kept going, it was, it was really funny. I would get mad at her and then I kept remembering. I don’t know if you ever heard Sam Rami talked about making movies and he said, you can’t have a movie unless someone does something stupid. Yeah. I guess, you know. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I guess, I guess I kind of tracks,

Pat:

Well, this movie, she does several stupid things.

Scott:

Leaving the money with JD was hard for me to like forgive her for

Pat:

Yeah. That was, that was one expensive orgasm, $6,600 worth. But it seemed like by judging by her face, when she goes to see Louise at the diner right after, I guess it was worth it, I guess. So, um, what else, what is it about

Scott:

It might be jumping around too far, but I could tell you one thing I didn’t like about the movie, the end were turned into the Dukes of hazard for a few minutes. Like the car chase, where the cop cars are just crashing and

Pat:

You don’t like that. 

Scott: 

I didn’t think it needed it. 

Pat:

I, I didn’t mind it. I enjoyed it. First of all, it looks, it looks great when they’re going through and they clip that one cop car and uh, the, the side mirror goes flying and slow motion. It’s got some good shots in there. And the, the, the, the, that overhead kind of crane shot where you see them going towards the top of the screen, and then slowly you see the 14 cop cars trailing behind them as a way of, it’s a way of bringing action toward put another action sequence without having, um, people die or get shot at or something to explode. I didn’t mind it. 

Scott: 

Okay. No, fair enough. But, uh, but I love, I love smokey and the bandit . I could watch smokey and the bandit every day. That’s the, this goes back to what I said. This movie is a seventies film. See, that’s a seventies thing to do.

Scott:

Yeah, You got a good point. There it is. Right seventies.

Pat:

It is very seventies. And the, the, the, the extended chase sequence, the action sequence of cars, that is a very seventies thing. Smoking abandoned any number of things. And it also ties into other road, other road films that also have fucked up weird endings. And this is what I like. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen movie dirty Mary, crazy. Larry. No, that’s a good one. And vanishing point. It’s also an extended road movie. That’s ends up in a seventies. up ending. 

Scott:

Yeah, no, I haven’t seen that either. I do, but I, I’m not as versed on the seventies movies as you are. Oh God. I love,

Pat:

I love him. I just, the thing that’s amazing. The, the vain of seventies insanity is so rich. I’m still mining it. I I’m still come across. I still find, I still find seventies movies. I’ve never even fucking heard of before. I’m just like, holy. This is great. Love it, love it. Cool. But also the other way, that’s movies, very seventies, and I love it. And it’s there two sequences where it’s used very well is Zoom ins this movie brings back the seventies zoom because there’s a sequence when Thelma, it cost her six, $6,600 to have the orgasm and learn how to be, how to be how to Rob convenience stores and liquor stores from JD once discovered, and she can Louise loses it and she takes control. And it’s like, okay, I’m going to fix this. And she stops by roadside and you don’t see, you stay with Louise and she’s in the car and she’s been crying and she’s just all up.  And she’s now she’s in the passenger seat. You know, Thelma is the one who’s driving the story and the car now, and Louise, she takes lipstick and she’s about to like put it on. And she, she looks, she looks across the street to the house or whatever. And in the window, there’s this slows zoom-in of this old woman, two old women. Do you remember this? 

Scott: 

No, I don’t. This is weird. 

Pat:

Okay. So yeah, this, this scene always resonated with me and I loved it. I knew there was just something about it that I love. She’s Louise is sitting there and she just sees these two, a woman through a window, and it’s a slow zoom in not a Dolly zoom into them. And the old woman got a wig and she’s kind of should look sad. And she kinda zooms in, and she kind of almost imperceptibly tries to smile at Louise it’s, it’s a haunting shot and you don’t need it.  You don’t need it. You could take it out. And someone would, but it, it adds it layers something to the film. And I always, after watching so many times, I always thought of it as Louise looks, she almost sees into the future because she’s, she sees two women. And you almost think like, oh, this is what Louise, if they didn’t, if they didn’t have this happen to them. And they went back to fucking bumfuck Arkansas, where they were, and she went back to asshole Daryl, and she went back to not, you know, to, to, to being just dating Jimmy for another 10 years, they would wind up being these two old women with too much makeup, just like sad, lone would empty lives. And she, when she added to that, then she goes to put on lipstick and she like, looks, she just gives, and she throws the lipstick away. 

Scott:

Oh, wow. I got to watch this again. I kind of remember the scene, but it didn’t have that effect on me that it did on in

Pat:

You. And they build upon that scene in my opinion later. And we’ll get to it about when Louise start has that barter sequence with the old man for her jewelry, for the hat kind of thing. And it continues on something that when we start talking about themes and motifs, that I’ll touch upon, but it certainly builds the movie that the script is very good because they didn’t change the script. They didn’t bring other people. They didn’t. The only thing that happened is they cut stuff out, but they didn’t fuck with the script as it was, which is also very amazing and hats off to Callie Khouri. So, you know, they just nipped and tucked. They didn’t change anything, they just cut back. But so the zoom and the other time that the zoom in is used, and it’s also very important is at the end of the film, when they decide, fuck it, let’s just keep driving.  Right, right. You got FBI helicopters. There’s no way out of this. And they seventies, it. Let’s just drive. Are you sure? Yeah. And they, they have it’s that sequence, it shot beautifully. It’s great. Also the filming of that, they did two takes and they were losing the light and the, in the second take that he got and he’s like, okay, I think we got it. He said, cut. And Gina Davis, Susan Surandon claims that the sun literally went out. Like, it just like, it turned as soon as they were done shooting that sequence. Wow. She was like, it was almost like, it was like, it was meant to be. So it’s pretty fucking great. But that sequence we’re just like, okay, we’re going to do this. And she, she gives that beautiful. Non-sexual just like, like last kiss of life to her friend before they’re gonna drive off the cliff.  And when they grab each other’s hand, there’s the zoom into the hands. And then there’s a zoom into the original Polaroid that they took together, which also shows how much they trick there’s movies. When I get two themes and motifs transformation is a very big part of this film. And you see that what’s supposed to be that first Polaroid that they take at the beginning of the film, which is used for the poster and also the stuff for the marketing of the film. And you see a zoom in, as you see that one photo fly out of the car. So there’s actual, there is a piece of remnant of the legend of Thelma and  Louise that that will stay with history in that photograph. So he uses zoom ins for important, very subtle and psychological things like with the old women, but then for very important things at the very end of the film, love the Zoom in.

Scott:

No, I totally caught the end of the film. I did not catch the thing with the old woman, but yeah, I, I totally see what you’re getting at with the at the end.

Pat:

The other thing is there’s so much in this movie that I like, and I mean, it, it is a female buddy road movie, and it does, it has a very modern Western feel. You know, there are two female Desperados on the run, New Mexico. And I also like it has important and relevant issues and a modern feminist feminist perspective, but it never, it never succumbs to being militant or a diatribe whatsoever. Oh, it managed to keep a balance. It keeps an amazing balance between being serious and being funny and always being entertaining, always looking gorgeous. The movie looks gorgeous and the editing is amazing. There’s, there’s a sequence. Uh, I love this. The editing sequence, the editing in this film is fucking spot on as is the there’s is the score. Um, you gotta give a shout out to Han Zimmer who has become one of my favorite guys.  He’s always does solid work, but he does an early one by him. And it’s great. The score that he did. And, but going back to the editing, uh, Tom noble at the film, and there’s a sequence that I particularly like where following that sequence, I talked about the two old women and she throws the lipstick way. And then Thelma comes running like Louise draft, get the help. Cause she’s just fucking  robbed the place she jumps in. And just like, what the do you? She’s like, I robbed. And she’s like, oh my God. And she’s like, well, what you say? She’s like, well, I just walked there. And then I said, and then hard cut to Harvey Keitel or, you know, Hall Slocum and Daryl and Stephen Tobolowsky is max. The FBI guy. They’re watching the surveillance footage. Right. And Thelmar picks up from there. I was like that. I was like, that was great. I was like editing the editing, just added to the humor and advanced the storyline immediately. So well done with one cut.

Scott:

Yeah, that was very cool. 

Pat:

Oh, one Thing I wanted to talk about, what is, I said, what I liked about this film or find interesting is, and I may have said this before, but people, people are surprised that I, I, that I, that I love this movie so much for some reason. And, and even Gina I think was, was a little taken back, like, you know, w w you know, wanting to know why I respond to this. And I, and I came across a couple of things. Like I respond to this film because it is a film about regular blue collar people finding power and freedom from the chains that society has put on them. Not just, not just women, like it is about women. But what I responded to is th is, is that for people in general, I mean, that’s what people want. That’s what people find liberating and fun and outlaw films.

Pat:

In my opinion, it is that freedom. And then Callie Khouri, I saw it said something in the other commentary that pointed to that, or, or, or elaborated on what I thought, why I responded to this film so much. And she said, it is a way of finding outlaw, films are its way of finding justice in a world where there is no justice, which I thought was a very succinct way of, of putting it. Huh? You a part of the reason why I love this film so much, and then also Ridley also said something in an audio commentary that I was like, yeah, you know, that, that must, that must be what it tapped into me, he said that in a way, the film has a hugely attractive quality. He thinks because the story and the way the film came out, which is really about, 

Scott:

yeah, yeah. I could see that. Totally. 

Pat:

You know, we should talk about 1991 in general, when this movie came out, because there was something going on that year, there was, it was really a good year for strong female leads in action films. And reelers, you know, there are a bunch about escaping or eliminating abusive and dominating men see, have lists.

Scott:

Yeah. What came out. I don’t even remember what came out that year

Pat:

Looked into. Cause I remembered that obviously someone’s, the lambs came out and that definitely connected to this film between the Oscars Oscar race and the fact that Jodie Foster was going to be in Thelma and Louise at some point. But there are a number of films. There was that Sally field movie, not without my daughter where she’s trying to escape her abusive husband and they go back to Iran or something and she’s trying to escape from him. And then they had sleeping with the enemy. Remember that one?

Scott:

I didn’t see it, but I remember

Pat:

It. I’ve seen it on VHS back then. I’ve watched a lot of stuff, stuff that I would never bother with today. Just like, ah, I don’t have time for that, but yeah. So just leave it now without my daughter came out in January the night, sleeping with the enemy in February, then LA femme Nikita, luc besson film that came out March. And that was awesome. Yeah. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. I never bothered with the TV show, but the original film I loved, I saw that at the Angelica. I think that’s where I started to then. Oh, there was the Demi Moore and Bruce Willis, one mortal thoughts was also about Bruce wills as the asshole husband and her and her friend. I forgetting the actress at the moment, but then of course there was terminated to judgment day, which came out in July.

Scott:

Okay. That was a big one. 

Pat:

Yep. That’s the big one. And this wasn’t a big, you know, particularly big one, but it still fit into a woman action leader, vi warshawski with the, uh, Kathleen Turner film. 

Scott:

Oh, was that any good? 

Pat:

I saw it on VHS. I don’t think I saw it in the theaters on VHS. Do not remember a single fucking thing. Yeah. But, but whatever it is good or bad. Oh, here’s a funny one. I’m not even on my list, but I did see this. I actually put it in a paper. It did a paper for a class. So had fiction class called the female automatons and the scifi film. I examined blade runner metropolis cherry 2000. I don’t know if you know that one. No. Oh, of Melanie Griffith. It’s like a cheapo, like almost like straight to video kind of, but good low budget, independent film of a future where most men have robot girlfriends or wives and his, his cherry 2000 breaks down.  But in order to get parts, he has to go into the wasteland and he has to get a guide. And that guide is Melanie Griffith. Weird. Yeah. So that, and then the other film I included in the, in that paper was Eve of destruction was a  Gregory Hines film, where there was the female robot that looked human, but I don’t remember why, but for whatever reason she goes rogue and she has a nuclear weapon inside of her 

Scott:

as most robots would. Sure. 

Pat:

Most robots do. Yeah. And in case, I don’t know what was in the water in 1991, but I guess it was time for women that try and have their day, uh, at least on the big screen.

Scott:

Wow That’s really interesting. Yeah. I didn’t even realize silence of the lambs came out at the same year until we started researching Thelma and

Pat:

Louise. Yeah. When I love dons and lambs, it’s great. That also had a time versary that came out February 14th. Okay. There were a couple of notes ahead about some, some anecdotes behind the scenes stuff that I thought was, was interesting and then various other commentaries and the making of that was on the DVD. The car of course is very important there in that car for most of the film, the 1966 cream Thunderbird, the T-Bird convertible. They had a bunch of those, but one of them caught fire within the first couple of days of shooting three were actually thrown off the cliff and apparently two of them. And it’s funny in the commentary withSusan Sarandon and Gina Davis and Callie Khouri, they talk about it. They’re like, oh, I wish I could have one. Like, oh yeah. Well those two, what the Ridley sons. So Ridley Scott sons each got a 1966. T-Bird on it.

Scott:

Nice to be a nice to be one of his kids.

Pat:

Yeah The other thing, the other thing that was very interesting and it ties into the impact that the film had socially and culturally, but sexual politics of is it Ridley Scott, apparently the Earl, the gross can truck driver that, that they keep coming across. That’s driving in that giant phallic symbol, Chrome tanker truck. So his hat and his glasses Ridley, Scott bought them, both of those items from an actual trucker. Oh really? That’s what he claims. He claims he saw. And he’s like, I got to have that hat and he saw the glasses on some other guy and they didn’t find it. And he just, he bought it off some real truckers. So he’s wearing that actually what’s worn by truckers. That’s hilarious. Yeah. And then also, cause there’s a, there’s this looking at this time, the, you know, the, the Earl’s hat that she gets takes after they blow up the, the tanker and it’s kind of like a, you know, her, her trophy is the take his hat and they both have the, both of the women have sequences where they literally take the hat like a symbol power from a man.  One is done by one is done by bartering purposefully, and one is done violently. So the, the truck driver had both the tank and then Thelma grabs it when they circle around him Apache war path when they circle around with kick up dust. But his hat is interesting because it has an American flag and it has a pin of the mudflap girl that, that is on his back of his truck that they’re like, oh my God, why do they do that. But the, the American flag is, is on that hat. And there’s a sequence when Louise is walking, she, she gets off the phone with ranging with Jimmy, you got to wire me get me this money. And he tells her to go to the vagabond hotel and she’s walking and it’s just throwaway shot, but it’s just some random dude. And he’s got no shirt, totally gross, drinking them, drinking a Miller.  Cause all dudes drink Miller in his movie and he has the, he doesn’t have a shirt, but he does have an American flag bandana. So it’s these, all these weird things about America and asshole men are associated. Oh, weird. And there’s actually an article that you sent me last night and I was looking through it. It mentioned something like, oh yeah, that’s right. And in the sequence where they go to the diner, there’s a lot of the color scheme in the background or whatever. There’s a lot of red, white and blue. So there’s a little weird infusion subtle or not so subtle. But the other thing would say is, and it’s tied to another little anecdote that I thought was interesting is when they go to town and Louise, is she making the strips Jean strips to be like, almost like a BOLO tie and weting it down like a noose around her neck.   And she sees a really old dude sitting there and she walks over and she takes the jewelry or whatever she barters for his hat. So Louise gets a hat through divesting herself of the rings and jewelry and stuff like that. And Louis takes a man’s hat. His symbol of who’s wearing the hat in violence. But that dude, that all cute old like Muppet man that they, that she goes to, he doesn’t say anything. She just says, hello. That guy lived in that town, apparently where they shot it was a uranium mining town and he was 95 and had Scott said talking to him and he said he had stopped mining uranium at fucking 90. Wow. Stop. I just thought that that really tickled me pink.

Scott:

Yeah, it has. It has a long career, right? Mining uranium. Then it gets to be in a movie. Yeah, I bet.

Pat:

Oh, really. If you read other things like shoot a blade runner and how controlling he is and how he’s more, he was more concerned about visuals than anything else. He’s apparently it was very different on this set or at least people said he, that he had told you how he loved to use the accents and pressurization and Christopher McDonald. But he also would just, he would be inspired stuff that rastafarin did you see that’s on the bike that comes along and blow smoke into the trunk at the cop is trying to escape. That was not in the script whatsoever. He had seen a dude cycling through where they were shooting in the Moab desert and he just thought that was great. And he just added that in as a afterthought as just the joke. And this movie shows when he wants to, he’s actually quite good at comedy

Scott:

I mean, that’s, it’s hilarious. You know, you see the guy go over and you’re like, you’re not sure what he’s going to do. And they just blow smoke though.

Pat:

Yeah. I love it. It takes its time to get there too. Yeah, he doesn’t, he doesn’t go up to the car immediately. He’s just chilling, listened to good stuff. Every time I sat in a theater, everyone always laughed at the same beats and that was one of them. Yeah. That’s hilarious. There was a couple of things watching it this time. Oh. But one of the Ridley Scott and I don’t know. Have you ever seen Terrance Malik’s Badlands? 

Scott:

Oh yeah. Love Badlands. 

Pat:

Well, Ridley said that when he was doing this film, he very much related to while he was shooting and thinking of Terence Malik’s Badlands, which kind of makes sense. It’s they’re not exactly the same kind of film, but he brought up something about how, like, he, he was fascinated about how you could get people who are doing wrong things and yet still be so likable. You can get the audience to empathize in Badlands. They really, I mean, they killed her, the girl’s parents and yeah. So because in this film, if you want to be technical, they did, I think he deserved it, but they do kill. You know, you could say they killed Harlan and cold blood. She had stopped them. Yeah. It’s not exactly as vicious and crazy as as badlands. But I thought that was very interesting that he did. He was very much by and thinking of turns Malik’s Badlands.

Scott:

I could kind of see it. I could see that. And you’re right. They, I mean, Harlan wasn’t really a threat at that point. I mean, he was a threat earlier in the, in the scene, but at that point he was pretty much under control. He just had to be a wiseass and opened his mouth. And if he, if he kept his mouth shut, he wouldn’t have got shot.

Pat:

Yes. And it doesn’t excuse it, watching the film. And you realize towards the end of the film that the film tick gets to, in my opinion, it explains a lot of Louise’s behavior when Thelma figures out that the reason why she refuses to go through Texas is because she was raped in Texas. And once you know that something, and you could see that she’s still not, she still has not come to terms with it because she w she refuses to discuss the matter. Even with her best friend. She’s like, I’m not going to talk about that. And she shuts it down. Like immediately, she doesn’t have a whole like, crying. Like, she’s like, no, I’m not talking about this, but I feel that the movie and very subtle or not so subtle ways does explicitly talk about it once you know, that that happened to her and you watched the movie again, I caught some, what I thought were like, oh, that’s a telltale sign.  So him saying that and pushing her she’s lashing out because she’s still has never gotten over, which is completely understandable, but she’s never gotten over what happened to her in Texas. So it is understandable. At least to me, it wasn’t a, we’ll get to it later, not to some critics, but to me, and I think you, but there’s a lot, there’s a lot of stuff going on here that I like when I looked at it, this is, this is a, a female outlaw film. It’s a, it’s a buddy film, but in a lot of respects, it is a modern Western. And there are a lot of, uh, obvious and not so obvious illusions and nods to westerns like louise’s  outfit at the very beginning, when they’re getting to go, she’s going to meet, I’m going to pick her up to go on this fishing trip outfit is very Western.  She has, she has like a very Western bolt, Bolero jacket and shirt, neck tie. And, um, she’s a little more, she’s more dolled up in and gussied up. Then they become more natural as the film progresses, going to the t-shirt. But by the end film, she’s still just in a Thelma and Louise there almost like a lone ranger and Tonto because Louise always has those sandals, like moccasins sandals, and Thelma has the cowboy boots. Oh, right. Yeah. Or Louise Louise by the end is a cowboy. She’s got her hat that she bartered for. And she’s added the neck tie, Jean jacket  it strips and watered. And the cowboy hat and Louise is kind of like her chemo Sabi, but she’s also becomes much, you know, with her, with her t-shirt and hat, she becomes a trucker. Yeah. That’s a good point. The bar that they go to is the silver bullet bar.  When Lee’s, when JD wants to ask, if he could get a ride Louise saunters into the frame, and she’s got a Twizzler in the corner of her mouth, like the man with no name, like it’s a, cigarrillo. She gets a very Western hero swagger once they, uh, on the road and decided to make their way to Mexico and the whole, the whole fascination throughout the film, they are the train, the railroad, the sound trains always around. So, and like I said, circling the truck driver with their car, like an Indian war raid after they blow up his giant Chrome penis. I also come out of the things that there’s a real theme of either the inversion of sexual roles or confusing generals with family rules or changing roles, because a parent, child, wife, father, husband, they all get jumbled and reassigned in this movie a lot by action. Or the dialogue Thelma is very much, she’s very childlike and naive at the beginning of the film. I love that, that, that has a, she’s eating the candy bars. She keeps putting in the fridge like a child, like a child hiding the candy. She’s not supposed to be eating or almost like acting like if she’s gonna get in trouble between either Darryl or Louise and Louise asked them at the beginning, is he your husband or your father? And then later Thelma tells Daryl on the phone outright that he is her husband, not her father, and then tells him to go fuck himself.

Scott:

Yeah and she definitely differs to Louie, to Thelma, definitely differs to Louise a lot where she definitely is letting her make the decisions. Yes. So it is, it is very much like a child parent relationship until towards the end.

Pat:

Yeah. I’ve got it up until I would say up until JD steals the money because DAMA totally idolizes, the wheeze, you know, it was very much a mother daughter relationship, even though they’re like a year apart, Louise is like, get your feet off the, off the dashboard. And when she’s crying, she’s upset and has blood. She wipes her face down and she, she, she tries to like, you would a child when she’s upset and hotel, I’m just like, you know what, why don’t, why don’t you go? Why don’t you go take a swim? What that’d be great that we should get rid of her the adults are in Jimmy. The adults can talk a lot of weird stuff. Like Carlin asked Thelma, she’s like, oh, your name’s Harlan. I have an uncle named Harley like, oh, is he a funny uncle?

Scott:

So creepy. 

Pat:

Yeah. But yeah, there’s just a lot of versions of roles. You know, other with family of confusion is a lot of stuff where the adults are acting childish or being childish. And that goes across the board when JD is in the hotel room with her, when they do that hard cut. And he’s like jumping out, down, up and down on the bed, like a six-year-old. Right. Yeah. It’s just, there’s a lot of stuff between children and adults acting like children. The ties to that, that stuff ties into there’s a recurring theme of role-playing and transformations are also a big part or concern in the film. One of the things with the, because they play a lot with societal roles or gender roles of when men behave like children or women are behaving, women are acting like a man would, for instance, I love that shot.  When Thelma sees JD, they see G D J D for the second time. And he’s lounging on that thing with the, I don’t know if it was a sink or whatever, and there’s the house in the background that it’s a total homage to James Dean’s iconic shot in the George Stevens film giant. And it looks beautiful because really makes it look beautiful. But Thelma does that weird thing of, they refused to take them earlier in the film and they come across him again. And she kind of looks at Louise and she just starts doing that weird thing winter, like, oh yeah,

Scott:

I forgot about that. Yeah, that was weird.

Pat:

I think it is to, just to be funny, but, but then it also occurred to me watching this time. I was like, well, men are the ones that are typically referred to as being the hound dog or the dirty dog, like chasing after the opposite sex. And here is a scene where thumb is physically doing that because she’s, she’s begging her to pick up that hot dude by the side of the road by acting like a, like a old hound dog. Oh. And to go back to a saying about role-playing transformations, Thelma, she starts off. And she, when they first take off, she, she takes a cigarette which is not lit and plays act that she’s smoking a cigarette and Louise looks at her like ‘what are you doing?’  And she’s like, I’m Louise. Like she physically pretends to be Louie. So she pretends to be her. And then the funny part is that once she has good sex, and once she discovers that JD has stolen her money and fucked her over and Louise falls apart.  And it’s almost like when a kid sees like mommy or daddy crying and they’re like, oh fuck, like I gotta fix this. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that’s what happens. And she, all of a sudden, it’s like, don’t worry about it. I’m going to fix it. And then she’s the one yelling at her, come on, we’ve got to go. And she totally totally switched roles where she takes control and takes range because of what happened. And when she sees Louise lose it, she’s like, well, I have to step up. And she was drinking before that. But then after that is when you see her drinking and she actually smokes. Okay. Huh. But yeah. And JD, uh, in terms of role-playing JD pretends that he’s pretending to be a college student needing a ride. And then he tells Thelma there’s one line that really stood out to me.  He tells them, uh, when they’re at the vagabond hotel and he’s jumping up and down, like I said, like the little kid and she’s like, just like, actually, who, who, who are you? And he says, I’m the great and powerful Oz. Who do you want to be?  It kind of stuck out. It’s like that one little line, which I’ve seen many times. It was like, oh, it’s like, you can reinvent yourself. You can be whoever you want with great powerful laws. And then I could be a convenience store robber. And he even play acts using the hairdryer. Is that, or is that gun to show her the technique and stuff like that. So, so it’s pretty layered. That stuff is it’s, it comes up a lot. And the characters, I mean, they really change in the course of like four or five days. 

Scott:

Yeah. They go through a lot, they go through a hell of

Pat:

A lot. Yeah. Going back to the there’s transformations. And it’s also tied something with Louise’s trauma that she experienced, that she refuses to actually speak to anyone even Thelma about when you see that article, you pointed out to me that we were talking about like, oh, look at how differently they’re packing. And at the very beginning of the film, you see that Louise is her fastidiousness is almost psychotic, which she’s got to put everything in the Ziploc bags. And she has still cleaned that one glass perfectly and leave it. And that article you sent me, they, they were just, they took it as, oh, her her life was so empty that she has to do that. And I’m like, no, I think got that all wrong. I think the fastidiousness in Louise is this desire to be clean. Like almost like a lady Macbeth kind of thing.  This thing, this thing happened to traumatics and catheter, she feels dirty and sullied. And so she’s when Harvey Keitel’s character Slocum breaks into her house. They even have a shot of him running his fingers over her table. And she hasn’t been there in days and it’s spotless. Right. There’s a lot of, so, and there’s also a lot, there’s a lot of water imagery in this film. You have not noticed?

Scott:

That I didn’t catch.

Pat:

It’s constantly raining when it’s not super sunny. There’s a lot of water image imagery where when Thelma first bumps into JD Brad Pitt JD his character, I don’t know what the fuck is doing, but it looks like he’s just Jacqueline water everywhere. Cause she bumps into him. It’s just like, I don’t know what he was doing with this rubber hose of water at the gas station, but people are in rain or getting caught in the rain or running through the rain a lot in a scene, the hotel Louie’s taken showers. And at one shot when they go to the roadside gas station bathroom. And when Louise sees that tiny speck of Harlan’s blood on her cheek and she flips out.

Scott:

Right? Yeah, I think you’re right. I think have something there, by the way. I just want to mention, there’s an article that pat and I have mentioned sharing, uh, I’ll put it in the show notes. It’s a pretty, pretty intense review of, of Thelma and Louise. No, I was gonna say it’s like a five-part series and I think they did it. The people did it, did it as they were watching the film. So I’ll add that in the show notes. It’s pretty interesting. 

Pat:

Good. Definitely. I enjoyed it. I liked the handoff between reviewers. It’s very fun and they’re very funny. They’ve got a lot of observations go back to transformations and the cleanliness thing, but you know, who is, you know, has those, the crate, you know, as the, the fastest transformation is that, that Nazi state trooper, huh? When they’re pulled to the side by him towards the end of the film and he’s got the mirror classes and Louise like, oh my God, he’s a Nazi. And he’s all like super stern, super macho. And then within like two minutes, he’s reduced to a blubbering crying pleading for his life, baby. 

Scott:

Yeah. That’s a good point. Huh. 

Pat:

And that, by the way was that was that comical transformation is the quickest one. And that was the actor. Jason Peggy, or beg B E G H E. That was all his idea to be reduced to this puddle of a man after starting off. Like he’s like Johnny Law.

Scott:

Oh, that’s funny. That’s a good call on his part.

Pat:

Yeah. Oh no, it totally works. It’s very funny. It works thematically with the stuff going on in the film. And there is a couple of things that are, I almost think they like visual asides or contemplations that I talked about when Louise sees the two old women. There’s a, I don’t know if you caught this, but when Louise refuses to pick JD up the first time, she’s like probably not a good deal. Yeah. She gets in the car and she’s like, all super cool. And she just guns. The car full speed in reverse. It goes backwards straight into the gas station. And you’re talking in the corner. Did you catch the two? Some totally random it’s it’s like cartoonish, machismo of commentary. There’s this total Venice beach muscle beach dude with headphones on tight shorts and like a muscle shirt. And he’s like a big like wrestler dude. And he’s just doing curls.

Scott:

 Oh yeah. I did.  I remember thinking at the time, like, what the hell is that guy? What the hell’s with that guy.

Pat:

Yeah. And the fact that no nothing’s done with it. It’s just, it’s just like, no, that dude, that dude just happens to work out right there at the gas station. So crazy.

Scott:

Uh, one thing I wanted to mention, I, I’m sorry I’m jumping all over the place. This should have been come up earlier. I was really amazed by how unfazed the waitress was when, how Slocum Harvey Keitel is interviewing her. And she’s just like, yeah, Heartland’s dead. Yeah.

Pat:

Not only is she unfazed, there was some criticism about how Thelma’s character could be okay. And have sex with JD or be excited by him. But she’s not the only one. Not only is she unfazed or doesn’t give a about what happened to Harlan. Cause she’s like, whatever. I hope it’s his wife. I’m the one that hope did it. She’s telling the audience like this guy was a. Yeah. I knew him. She probably grew up and went to school with his and could give a that he died was like surprised it didn’t happen sooner. But the best part is the even more interesting part is she’s using the opportunity to try and kick it to SSlocum.  She’s like, oh, you just cut me out. You’re not going to have a drink or like, come on. You just want to ask bumb questions about that asshole?  The girls on the Mekinist movie, they don’t care. They’re like I got, I got stuff to do.

Scott:

Yeah. No, that’s a good point. It’s funny though. It’s just like Harland was not going to be missed.

Pat:

No, I mean, and I think it comes, I forget it’s either it’s close to the, a shot of classic. Ridley Scott  it’s night, the concrete is wet. So it reflects different lights. There’s smoke, zip up the body bag. She’s like, yup. He deserved it. Really. You’re not going to get a drink with me. You’re missing out Harvey Keitel. Yeah, no, she was great. He’s uh, I, I didn’t, I haven’t seen Jane Jane, I believe she’s a Nat and she seems to have been in many films after that. But that part I got it

Scott:

Yeah I Thought it was pretty funny. I should have mentioned it earlier. I just, I just thought of it now. It’s like, yeah, that was great.

Pat:

The reviews were, had people loving it or downright pissed off the needles swinging so far across and both male and female critics were vehemently praising it or panning it, the critical and cultural debate and the controversy that this film created and gendered is really fascinating. And I think it’s a really big part of the whole mystique and the reputation that the film has in pop culture consciousness even today, especially today. And it continues. It is an important part of discussing the film is just how much, just how much people were really up in arms and debating it.

Scott:

Yeah. And I think still to this day, they still do. I mean, it’s still, it’s still a movie you could, you could talk to non movie people about and they’ll they’ll have an opinion about it.

Pat:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you had Janet Mason near times, loved it and throw his grade Roger Ebert. Then there were those that felt it had strong feminist overtones, Kenneth Turan called it a Neo feminist road movie. But then you had the flip side where even you had peoples, we had critics claiming that it wasn’t, that wasn’t the case. Interestingly, the daughters of Thelma Louise, Jessica Enval argue that the film is an attack on the conventional patterns of chauvinist male behavior towards females. In addition to exposes the traditional stereotyping of male female relationships and Los Angeles film critics, Sheila Benson said that objected to the characterization. The film is feminist arguing that it’s more preoccupied with revenge and violence than feminist thous it, the list goes on and on, but it was such a big deal. This movie, Thelma and Louise made the cover of time magazine on June 24th, 1991.  And on the cover it said, why Thelma and  Louise strikes a nerve? And I told you all habit. I, it took me four hours, if not more to frind my copy for this, for this recording. But the interesting thing is that the main article was written by Richard Schickel, who wrote the autobiography of Clint Eastwood that we discussed and our outlaw Josey Wales podcast. Oh wow. Okay. And some might think, oh, well he probably didn’t like it. His article is gender bender over Thelma and Louise  a white hot debate rages over whether Thelma and Louise celebrates liberated females, male bashers, or Outlaws. And he’s, he starts off the article with, you know, giving you a taste of the different kinds of things. Being said. It is the pan to transformative violence and explicit fascist theme, a small hearted, extremely toxic film about as morally, intellectually screwed up as Hollywood could get.  And I was written by a social commentator, John Leo, for us news and world report. It justifies armed robbery, manslaughter, chronic drug, and driving’s exercises and consciousness raising charges. New York daily news comes from Richard Johnson. And again, then Sheila Benson said that it has has to do with responsibility, quality, sensitivity, understanding, not revenge retribution or sadistic behavior. I just went on and on. But his take was that Thelma and Louise is a movie whose scenes and themes lend themselves to sort of provocative of discussions. And it did so in 1991. And I learned looking at things for his podcast still does today because he defended it. He thought that for those parts that just of his, his article was that those people that were really getting upset were missing the point. And he quelled a lot of what male bashing criticisms level that the film and that it supported, uh, violence basically Schickel was, was saying what you and I have been talking about and agree that it remains an intriguing movie.  back then and stirs imagine stirs one’s critical imagination. And it continues to do so. In the same time magazine, they also had a woman of female critic. Margaret Colson say, is this her article was, is this what feminism is all about by playing out a male fantasy? Thelma and Louise shows, Hollywood is still a man’s world. So it was a big deal then. And it still is. I mean, the sexual politics and, or the perceived special sexual politics made this film, the zeitgeists that it was. And I came across that for the 25th anniversary, Kyle Smith at the New York Post did an article for the, for the anniversary to sit as a feminist film, Thelma Louise fails miserably. And at around the same time, Harper’s bizarre had a celebratory 25th anniversary celebration lauding in his groundbreaking. It’s kinda, it’s kind of crazy. I, I am more in Richard Schickel camp.

Scott:

Yeah, it would be true. I’d agree with that. And

Pat:

Gina Davis points out something that for all this talk and bluster about how awful it is. And she finds out that three people die in this movie and two of them are Thelma and Louise, right. It’s considered a great movie. It won, won Oscars. It won Oscar for best screenplay category won a golden globe writer’s Guild award, rotten tomatoes. It’s 85% tomato meter, 7.5 out of 10 on IMDB. So it’s still considered a good, a very good film. And I agree.

Scott:

Yeah, I totally agree. And it holds up, I mean, I think a lot of the points that makes are still as relevant today as when it came out.

Pat:

That’s interesting. Cause you, you hadn’t seen it before, so seeing it 30 years later. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good point. But yeah, there’s so much, there’s this movie it’s such a lot of fun. I think if we haven’t seen it and we ruined some things for I’m sorry, but you should definitely see it if you haven’t seen it. There’s a couple of things I want to say. It’s funny. The marketing campaign for this movie is so bizarre because I I’ve been driving myself crazy, trying to find, I have this old video store standing that I loved and I don’t know what I did with the fucking thing, but I also, last night I came across, I have the original press kit for the film and I might have the poster, but the marketing for this film is the one thing that I was like, wow, this is really shitty. You see this movie, you know what the, you know what the, the, the tagline of the poster was no idea. It said, somebody said, get a life. So they did.

Scott:

Geez, isn’t it. The thing he ever heard that would not make me want to see this movie.

Pat:

I mean, I mean, the marketing department really should be ashamed about that. It  is so fucking bad. It’s not what the movie is about at all. No, they did this, this company did this really beautiful poster that came out like a year after. It was very limited and it was very retro. It was done the way like thirties posters were done and it looks great much better. The tagline is that. And for the day put on that poster is one of the lines. That is one of my favorite lines of the film. It’s just Louise at some point says to Thelma, you get what you settle for. And that’s the tagline used that. And that line is so simple. And yet it’s so insightful. I think those words, those are words to truly live by, in my opinion, you get what you settle for. It’s true.

Scott:

Yeah. Totally true. Yeah. That’s much better. Wow. That’s uh, uh, yeah, I did not know that was the tagline, the original one. That is horrible.

Pat:

One other thing that I, Callie Khouri says something in the audio commentary and I think it’s very great. And I just want to add this. I have so much to say, but I feel like I’ve been oral diarrhea this entire podcast, but no, it’s a great Callie Khouri said in the order of commentary, it was the most liberating thing that ever happened to me. And it untied me from every bit of insecurity or fear I had ever had my life about trying to accomplish something. All of a sudden I felt, if you can think it, you can do it. That became true. And that changed my life. I thought that was awesome. And, and I think it’s very inspiring, right. For everyone. Yeah. That’s very cool. Yeah. Very cool. Because for me, while this movie is about women and it’s about women finding their power and, and I agree 100%, but I took it to where it was inspiring for everyone, in my opinion. That’s what, that’s what I really want connected with it.

Scott:

Yeah I think it’s a great movie. I had a really good time watching it. Definitely going to watch it again. You brought up a lot of stuff that I’d missed. So

Pat:

A little bit to be fair too. There I’ve seen it many more times than you get. What one other final thought I wanted to bring up to? Are you aware of the Bechdel test or the Bechdel Wallace? I am

Scott:

Aware of it, but maybe you should explain what it is.

Pat:

Okay. So Alison Bechdel had this strip and, uh, we, when, when I worked at St Mark’s comics, we sold a lot of these it was very popular. It was a strip called Dikes xto watch out for. And in one of those strips, it has two women who are talking and one states that she only sees a movie. If it satisfies its three basic requirements and then states the three rules, one, it has to have at least two named women in it too. Who talked to each other three about something besides a man, this film, I believe certainly passes the Bechdel Wallace test. Yep.Thelma and  Louise because they, well, they do talk about men a lot. There are lots of conversations where a man does not come into it. The other thing I wanted to say, that’s very interesting to me is that in the original strip, the woman replies, the two women were talking, she explains the three rules. And one, one woman says something along the lines like, oh, it was pretty strict rules. And the woman who’s described what it is says, no kidding. The last I was able to see was alien. Wow. So Ridley Scott did it at least twice people, least twice. And it’s even in the original strip. That’s pretty cool. Just want to make sure I mentioned that for this podcast.

Scott:

So you want to, you think we should wrap things up then?

Pat:

Yeah. Yeah. Yup. Yup. Well, that’s all the time that we have want to join the conversation, come and visit us at www.thecinephiliaclounge.com.

Scott:

And don’t forget to follow us on Instagram, where, where thecinephiliac and on Twitter, you can find us at the thecinephiliac1.

Pat:

Thanks for joining us. Next time we will discuss the Denis Villeneuve film Arrival. Thank you so much.

Scott:

Looking forward to that. Thank you everyone.